How can a Christian

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anybody who wants to take religion and turn it into government is really just not looking at history. Sometimes, I think people on here just spout off without really thinking. </div></div>

But throughout history that is exactly what has happened. Laws are made because of the religious views of a country. The culture of a nation itself is an outward living of its religious beliefs. Be it the Romans pantheon of gods, the God of the Israelites and Christians, the Muslim god, even the atheistic beliefs of communism because their god is the state. You can never separate the government of a society from the dominant religious belief.

Has the idea of "separation of church and state" been the view of the US always? Or is it the distortion of a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists who were frightened by a rumor that a State Church was about to be set up? Jefferson himself appropriated money for missionaries. Twice the Congress appropriated money to buy bibles which were in short supply in the states. And there are many other instances of the US government voting for money to be spent on Christian causes.

" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" simply put, Congress cannot name any certain religion as the state sponsored religion ie Make the Roman Catholics, Baptist, Presbyterians or Methodists THE church of the US such as is what happened in every European nation and resulted in bloodbath after bloodbath.

Every civilization at some point has also failed.

That is because they put religion and not God in their lives.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


You made it political by saying how could anyone vote for a democrat.</div></div> Show me where I said anything about Democrat in my original post. My question was about the moral responsibility of Christians to vote for candidates who stand against immoral values. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Death is death last time I checked. Agreed on the only God can judge you, my view is that I don't believe in murder and that is between God and I not the government.</div></div> Without the adoption of religion-based laws, there would be no laws. That has been true with every civilization that had some type of religion. If you don't believe in murder, then you don't believe in abortion?

As I've said in this thread I would never want a woman I was with to abort. However, I can not judge or make decisions for others. I don't think it's the governments place to do so either.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PVFAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As I've said in this thread I would never want a woman I was with to abort. However, I can not judge or make decisions for others. I don't think it's the governments place to do so either. </div></div>

Thomas Jefferson, in penning the Declaration of Independence said:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Government has an obligation to be involved, especially our government. Where are they in protecting "the certain unalienable Rights" of the unborn?

Try this. Enter into your closet and earnestly pray to God about this. If after days of earnest prayer you can come back and tell me that God leads you to believe that government has no business dictating who lives and who dies, that abortion is O.K. as long as it's the mother's choice, that gay activity is acceptable, and that as Christians we have no business judging the moral stance of a candidate, then I'll fold up my Bible and shut up!

You quoting Jefferson talking about equal rights when we had slaves and women were treated as objects?

Jefferson was a Deist...and Life, Liberty and the Persuit of Happiness is what we are talking about here...and I don't see any centemeter long embryos walking the streets of Wise County..to me that applies to the living...not the not yet living.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> and I don't see any centemeter long embryos walking the streets of Wise County..to me that applies to the living...not the not yet living. </div></div>

What size do they need to be to be "Alive"

Do we go with "Viable" outside the womb and if so as medical technology advances will we get to the point that a "centemeter long embryo" is consitered "Alive"?

I don't consider life until an embryo or fetus could live outside the mothers womb...but that's just me.